I have not had that experience. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. I could not get past the point of believing that God had ordained my abuse until I discovered there was another way of putting the jigsaw together. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. Vous tes ici : churro cart rental bay area; circuit courts are also known as; list of non calvinist theologians . There are many bite marks on my tongue. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. God, help us to love. What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? . That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. Quotes about calvinism R.C. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? But are *we* the measure of truth? Why can we not focus on God and Jesus and what He did for us? And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. I looked them up just long enough to figure out that Christus Victor is not necessarily the same as the ransom theory (I do kinda wish I knew more about this, since it gets lobbed at C. S. Lewis a lot because of LWW). Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. And if we go to ourselves, were going to get something like what elastigirl wrote above. As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. from what Ive seen here, youve always been a gentleman and tolerant of others who do not believe as you do. But I can tell you this, there are times in the past where I would have characterized the tone of TWW as anti-Calvinist. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. How many blogs do you know that feature writers or pastorswho have significant differences in soteriology from the blog owners? It is only required that we do not demean each other while in argument. (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Okay, that makes it a little less OCD. @ Julie Anne: It might not make people any more interested in Calvinism, but it just bothers me to see a doctrine rejected for the wrong reasons. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. I am loving this discussion!!!!!! @ Arce: And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be is the last thing we need. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. Id like to agree with both, if thats ok. We need exactly the right kind of nutrition at exactly the right kind, but maybe not the milky kind because we emerge from trauma both far too old and still too young. Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. Everything. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. Systematic Theology Comparison Chart. Good point. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. +++++++++++++++++. I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. Canada ON - Waterloo. This is also (imo) true for many, many people. What you believe is irrelevant. Going to church in the north during those days was different. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Change). 5:11-14 (cf. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. Many Christian Protestant denominations trace their roots to John Calvin and the reformation movement. Maybe only a part of it is wrong, maybe the whole thing. I believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. Breathes words of consolation deep inside you. But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? whats wrong with mess anyway? Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. You are not a Cavinista. Association of Related Churches @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. Roger Olson 23. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. Does that make me not a Calvinist? Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. Olson has occasionally been accused of heresy for not adheringto the current YRR view of doctrine. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. That is biblical. He referred to our mutual, former experience as Bible light. My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. I think that is biblical. So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. Your voice is missing! Holds you and strokes the back of your head. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. As I have stated, I do try to be sensitive and let people vent. CALVIN! To derive strength from and grow like a shoot from a huge old oak tree. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. We are. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. When we hold to a law or principle that we think makes us better Christians but instead, causes existential damage to others, then something about that law/principle is awry and needs thorough reconstruction. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. "I want to have a discussion with you. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. I dont know. I have to admit-this made me giggle. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. I, for one, *do* understand. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. Joel B. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. The whole idea of total depravity is simply to say that you must be elect in spite of yourself, regardless of how good or bad you are because good and bad dont really mean anything to God as far as WHY He saves some and not others. Both groups will say you dont understand their views/religion, or they say you are misrepresenting them (even if you really are not and have read lots of books by ex, or current, members of their groups who explain what the group believes). They find it sustaining. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. Regarding the idea of God controlling every molecule, Sproul (and the Westminster Confession of Faith) asserts that God is in control of everything, but never in such a way to do violence to the will of man or make God responsible for evil. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. We do better together than we do on our own. Thats not counting all the wives of elders, deacons, and Christian men in general. Anywaythats fine. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. C.K. Tell himyou love himanyway. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. And to be honest, using the TULIP definition of calvinist, Id have to say Im a 2 point calvinist (I believe in the perseverence of the saints, and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.) John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point.. . Written by Daniel Isaiah Joseph in Charts. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. I realize that, even with these qualifications, there are those who find such a God abhorrent, and that there are some who will be upset by the notion of such a God, probably because of some terrible thing they went through. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. @ Muff Potter: It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. All are welcome to participate. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. When you say that people are misrepresenting the Reformed view, or Calvin, or Tulip, you seem to not understand that many of the people commenting have been taught that total depravity is Truth (along with other teachings that have done much harm) and if they believe otherwise, they may not even be believers. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did.

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